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New Dev Blog, Nozh on Carriers Redux, Part II

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 17 post(s)
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:02:00 - [1] Needing refits, but still keeping the flexibility. That resonates with the rest of EVE, but how exactly is this planned to be done? IF the 5 fighter rule is still coming into play, I would highly urge a +dmg to the adv drone interfacing skill much as you did with the previous drone nerf. Keep the damage on par even if there are less drones. maybe +30% per level under the control of a carrier, 60% under a mothership. But something to keep the survivability (which is already limited) where it is. Just an unbiased recommendation.... alongside the possibility of a minor respec if it's REALLY bothering a player. ------------------------------------------- Carrier & Mothership changes - Voice your opinion here!
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 01:46:00 - [2] Create an alternate carrier, the two focusing on different specializations and give all carrier pilots a one time 'at login' "Carrier Selection / Carrier Trade" screen? shrugs ------------------------------------------- Carrier & Mothership changes - Voice your opinion here!
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:15:00 - [3] While I have concerns regarding the carrier situation (especially NOT knowing yet what modules are coming out to accomplish this balancing), at least it seems like a step in the right direction versus what the original blog suggested. I mean, the number of constructed carriers quoted in statistic (whether they were flying or not) was staggering, but I'm just curious how many dreadnoughts and freighters were constructed now. However, I can at least SEE (or in a rudimentary way understand) why you're doing this if that number is starting to grow disproportionate to the number of other capital ships. I mean, one of the best 'comebacks' on the forums lately has been "remove all ships but one frigate/rookie ship/etc" whenever it comes to balance issues. This seems to just be addressing that on the capital level to prevent "Capital/Carriers Online" from being born right? Still have to swallow after a year of them being out, but something HAS to be vastly better about carriers if people are using them that much more over dreads and battleships. (I mean come now, barring some high end complexes and level 5s, do you really need to rat a -0.6 sec system with a carrier? Oh the things my CovOps has seen :/. ------------------------------------------- Carrier & Mothership changes - Voice your opinion here!
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Ieu Duin It is 100% artificial to require Carriers to bring a "wingman" along just to be able to launch their full compliment of fighters. They are Carriers for Amarr's sake. They are their fighters. Take the fighters away and all you are left with is a 200,000 Ton Quick-E Mart. Don't take the fighters away; make them only be able to support the fighters. Take away all other offensive capabilities. Strip them of their armor and restrict their support to the fighters. If players want to make Strike Carriers then they can select those types of fighters. If they want ECM Carriers then they can go that way. If you want to mandate that Carrier pilots use their fighters in support roles for other ships then give them bonuses to perform those functions. Do things that require the Carrier to need a supporting cast in other areas. The fighters are not the problem the Carrier is the problem. Fix the problem don't limit the primary tool of the vessel. You are penalizing Carrier pilots for your lack of foresight. I'm sincerely hoping they're getting rid of the forced delegation idea. The specialization concept is one thing (ie... drone control units being required for additional fighters / damage) but forcing the carrier to need a wingman FOR that specialization was silly. ------------------------------------------- Carrier & Mothership changes - Voice your opinion here!
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:53:00 - [5] Originally by: haniblecter Fighting in the North this past year against MC/BoB sucked. Im not a capital pilot and I have no desire to be one. Watching as all the action was had by cap ships blows. Nerf them, or combat will be faar out of the capability of average/new playes. btw, I got 30mill sp too. Careful... I know some pilots that'll hunt ya down for a statement like that :P (Not that I'm one) ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:57:00 - [6] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 24/10/2007 14:57:57 Originally by: Inflexible So generally, you are going to nerf anything (no matter what) on carriers, simply to give more "fun" to newer players killing these ships? It is not first game where devs came with idea of increasing fun to younger players at expense of older ones... It is pretty much shortsighted, because everyone will lose their motivation. I'm sure not ALL players (edit: 'whom have played) since launch moved into capitals. Even if fully combat specced in non-capitals, surely they deserve fun (edit: in fleet battles) too. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:03:00 - [7] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 24/10/2007 15:04:38 Originally by: Kagura Nikon Another way of nerfing carriers without nerfing is... increase dreadnaught dps. Enough that 1 dread can wipe a carrier alone in not long time. Something like 50% more damage. That doe not get anything new or cool to the game, but would be a deterrent to excessive carrier usage. The most common issue that I've heard about Dreadnoughts is that they're practically worthless unless you're in Siege mode. I've even had both corp- and alliance-mates tell me "Go Carriers.... the Dread is worthless unless you become a turret". Maybe this is the problem. Give Dreads some better capital killing power without needing that 10 minute siege and that perception would go away -_-. Originally by: Lady LeJean b) I am truley concerened about carriers / motherships lumped into 1 category here .. when I am paying upwards of 20 x the cost of a carrier to be in a MS, sacrificing even my ability to dock, why is the mothership being lumped into this? For the sacrifice and cost, and the name MOTHERSHIP one would expect it to hold a lot of ships, be great for logistics and have a nasty sting if you arbitraritly start shooting at it .. I STILL think Motherships should be allowed to dock because of that reason. I mean, I can't imagine the boredom of almost never being able to fly anything else :( ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Turk Turkletun Edited by: Turk Turkletun on 24/10/2007 15:27:51 Of all the years i've played MMOs, this is the first time i've seen players threatening to quit actually stop (or delay) a "nerf". Not being able to fly a carrier, i cant really speak for the crying masses, but i can tell you what i see: An angry mob of Solopwnmobile pilots scared of having to use more strategy to get kills. This happens in every MMO. One gameplay aspect gets abused or "overpowered" through a particular use, and then the devs pull out the nerf bat and swing away. Of course there is much crying and "shrinkage" across the community. But eventually everyone adapts and another gameplay item or mechanic is targeted. Devs you have now opened Pandora's Box. The players now know that you're willing to back down if they urinate'n'moan enough. From now on when you propose a change the crying is only going to get worse and worse. As all of use players have been told (by a few of you carrier pilots i imagine) Adapt or Die. The trick is, the first nerf was downright unreasonable to even non-carrier pilots (barring the low-sec smartbombed ones ^^)... this one is more stable and sensible. The last one DESERVED to be nuked O-o. I was analyzing the entire thread and there was an overwhelming 'this is bad'. Heck, even the ideas FOR it wern't promising. :( ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:57:00 - [9] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 24/10/2007 15:58:21 Originally by: Seven Scars What a bunch of Tards how can a Carrier be an "End all" ship if you cant even move it out of a system without someone dropping a cyno for you??????? Isn't it a pre-requisite that every Carrier pilot have his or her own Cyno alt? The ship screams teamwork, yet people still are willing to spend $15 / month extra just for that alt to use it solo. No dreadnought pilot I've spoken to yet (I'm sure there are some though) have done that. That fact alone screams that there's something grossly overappealing about the carrier in its abilities. Everyone's always saying that 'just put everyone in frigates' comment to balance everything.... well, it's going that direction as it is without changes. Just replace frigates with carriers. Still though, I would be for buffing the crud out of a Dreadnought to be able to take on a carrier or two without siege mode. But that's personal preference. EDIT: Daelin's below has an 'fing awesome idea by the way ^_^ Good job man! ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 21:08:00 - [10] DEV Team: Not everyone is going to enjoy these changes to the extent of liking the 'new' carrier. Some are going to downright hate it as you know. In every other MMO that's ever changed drastically, there have been one time respecs. I understand this goes against the fundamental lifeblood of EVE, but given the time it takes for these, how hard would it be to meet half way and give the really dissatisfied a one time chance during a month to trade SP on a 1 for 1 basis for every capital related skill beyond 'Advanced Spaceship Command' so they can take that road not taken? It may not be the same as flying the carrier, but it'll give them the ability to do something else they were planning or even remotely curious at in light of this. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 23:38:00 - [11] I'm pretty sure they observe the outcomes of live tranquility.... but the playing on the servers.... While I'm sure they do play on alternate accounts (I mean who wouldn't), I remember people posting previously in both the 'dev accusation' posts T20 and the POS-spy incidents that devs shoudn't even be allowed to play on Alt accounts. Yea, the situations are different, and pardon my french, but with the playerbase the issue of devs playing on live servers seems to be a damned-if-the-do-damned-if-they-don't situation purely based off player need at the time. It's gotta be a frustratingly fine line for them to walk. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 23:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Maverick McDougel someone check that new guy's resume from when he applied to make sure it does not SOE anywhere on it. we all know what they did to SWG. Never did forgive SOE for the NGE :(. And to think I loved Jump to Lightspeed too -_- ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 00:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Ruffryder1167 Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin I'm pretty sure they observe the outcomes of live tranquility.... but the playing on the servers.... While I'm sure they do play on alternate accounts (I mean who wouldn't), I remember people posting previously in both the 'dev accusation' posts T20 and the POS-spy incidents that devs shoudn't even be allowed to play on Alt accounts. Yea, the situations are different, and pardon my french, but with the playerbase the issue of devs playing on live servers seems to be a damned-if-the-do-damned-if-they-don't situation purely based off player need at the time. It's gotta be a frustratingly fine line for them to walk. I sure hope they watch, but then that doesnt explain why reimbursement petitions due to desync or lag come with the standard response of logs not showing blah blah... Im sure if the devs let everyone know they would be there to observe before hand there would be no problem, its only when they do things without player knowledge that freaks people out. And if they do play on alt accounts, then why do they insist on this nerf, surely they would see its not needed (specialization sure, but the 5 fighter nerf no). If they observe in TQ they could probably come out with ships that need minimal tweaking. Its better than the guess and check method seen right now. No idea honestly. Those are questions that only CCP can answer. I could theorize, but I know I'd be wrong. I don't even have a single level in Theorycraft :( And believe you me... I'm STILL against the 5 fighter limit thing o-o. That was a DEFINITELY a crippling shipclass-destroying nerf. Without more info on this new route.... I can't comment on it. I mean, if they give my future carrier the option to nearly double it's effectiveness in one field for a partial-penalty on the rest of its 'swiss army' functionality.... that sounds psudo-alright. We just need to know exactly what they're planning (new fighters? 'function-core slot?' etc). ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 02:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Hroller McKnutt Nooooooooooooooo First, you killed the Gaurdian-Vexor now this.... At least now that's not on market. ^_^ When it was I was repeating the story of it way too often to newcomers O_O ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 04:31:00 - [15] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 25/10/2007 04:32:16 Originally by: Locke Deathroe Originally by: infinityshok Either the devs are not reading what their customers are saying or do they simply do not care. The overwhelming response is the customers dont care what the misguided intentions the devs have for carriers/MSs are. They have made their wishes clear and the only correct response is to follow them. This isnt the personal playground of the devs but a business where the customers have clearly spoken. Heed their wishes or they will take their ball and play in someone elses yard. Leave carriers/MSs alone unless their fighters are getting a boost. Stop effing with things that arent broken and fix things that are. If the devs have such a hard on about adjusting things, start with Jita where I cant do something as simple as log in on a weekend. Jita wouldnt be so laggy if there werent so many carrier blobs spamming fighters outside IV, M4. Take great care in looking over this very thread, not a single GM or DEV post since its inception. You are right, they don't care, never did care, and until the only people left playing are the dev's and GM's most likely never will care. The very history of eve has taught me one thing, the players are the last thing on the dev's mind. You get ZERO support, can't even call the office at CCP, and pretty much are always the last to know when somethings going to get nerfed. Looks like we should all start looking for a new game folks! More Devils Advocate stuff incoming.... It took FOREVER for devs to acknowledge the previous thread about carriers. They answered and said that this idea was not going to be like the previous one. Already someone's "Carrier Logistics Core" thing got looked at, and is likely in consideration. I'm sure the new fighter idea is going to be looked at. Etc etc. At this point, current carrier pilots and future ones should just be making sure that they don't go through with the crippling 'no control over >5 fighters' patch, but accept that something is still going to be done, as with 10,000 carriers, it does seem like the 'end game' ship they are advertising (I've been suggested MANY times to go carrier myself) and they are going to fix that in one way or another. So at this point the game plan for me is: 1) Help CCP realize the drone control limit of 5 drones is REALLY bad given a chaotic battlefield and should UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES be put in. 2) Assist in mitigating this situation, coming up with compromises that will help them bring a ship into their line of vision while retaining part of my (and carrier pilots) own. It's just a matter of that one word COMPROMISE. Things change, it's just a matter of finding that middle ground. (EDIT 1: Added emphasis to point 1 because it matters) ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 04:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Locke Deathroe Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 25/10/2007 04:32:16 More Devils Advocate stuff incoming.... It took FOREVER for devs to acknowledge the previous thread about carriers. They answered and said that this idea was not going to be like the previous one. Already someone's "Carrier Logistics Core" thing got looked at, and is likely in consideration. I'm sure the new fighter idea is going to be looked at. Etc etc. At this point, current carrier pilots and future ones should just be making sure that they don't go through with the crippling 'no control over >5 fighters' patch, but accept that something is still going to be done, as with 10,000 carriers, it does seem like the 'end game' ship they are advertising (I've been suggested MANY times to go carrier myself) and they are going to fix that in one way or another. So at this point the game plan for me is: 1) Help CCP realize the drone control limit of 5 drones is REALLY bad given a chaotic battlefield and should UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES be put in. 2) Assist in mitigating this situation, coming up with compromises that will help them bring a ship into their line of vision while retaining part of my (and carrier pilots) own. It's just a matter of that one word COMPROMISE. Things change, it's just a matter of finding that middle ground. (EDIT 1: Added emphasis to point 1 because it matters) I agree totally mate, the problem is I have yet to see anyone at CCP care about what we the players say or do. Your 1st point (ie. Help CCP realize the drone control limit of 5 drones is REALLY bad given a chaotic battlefield and should UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES be put in.) is the main issue of this thread. But like 90% of the threads on here, a dev or GM might start the thread.... but thats it. After that VERY few ever post a reply, make a statement or anything of use. If nothing else I would like to see a dev "bump" now and then just to see they ARE reading what's being said. Can't fault ya there... communication is the great equalizer. lights a candle ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 14:20:00 - [17] Originally by: CCP Zulupark Originally by: Fedaykin And this one goes to CCP As 24 pages of post and 98% of members dont approve your change. As a community, paying members and carriers pilots, dont you think we should have a word on those kind of change ? Stop playing on test server and come in the real joy of 0.0 . Stop playing with our toys and fix the damn servers so we can actualy fight in a fleet op. We are still reading this thread and reading your comments, we've posted two blogs, both asking for community feedback. The latter blog contained quite a lot of information players had been asking for. We have stated that we want more time to work on our ideas, and you can be certain - as always - that we present them to you at earliest possibility. Zulu, from what I've understood from the carrier pilots (both in and out of game), much of this hate (hey, there's no better word to call it) comes from the fact they still fear the adjustment to only 5 fighters under direct control. Is the dev team at liberty to comment if this is still on the platter or not? ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 15:05:00 - [18] Originally by: sia alexandria ok were getting there. i understade you sentiments, but ccp is on unsteady ground. IF this means carrier could play attack role.15 drones, shield etc but have to sacrifice its repair ability,hanger and array (not high slots left) or it could refit to support. reps arrays etc (with only 10 drones, even saying 5 have to be assigned to someone else) it get an extreemly tentative reserved oh-so-not-sure maybe its ok. anything beyone that will result in the revolution /me hopes ccp is actually listening I'm hoping that's what they're planning personally. It's sensible... middle-ground.... not quite what carriers are now but close enough... etc... etc. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 15:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Carriers - The Swiss Army Knife of EVE Blog So Iæm not nerfed today but in 3 months instead? Yes, but not like proposed earlier. You will have more choices to make. You can be all you can be, just not all at the same time. We will look at tracking of Fighters, Drones and so forth, including the addition of more Fighter types. We will look at new modules for a broader selection, and at moving basic functionality to modules, such as you have to fit the ship hangar to get the functionality, but offer something up in exchange(like, a slot). That is at the core of the new proposal. You retain your abilities, power, and versatility, but at a cost you chose. After all, choice is what EVE has been about. You should know, you painstakingly trained yourself through all the different ship classes and their role-sets. Read the bold print people. CCP, please comment here at least once about that bold statement. At least put these people's minds to rest that they aren't loosing their fighter control to delegation so we can stop hearing that same argument of forced delegation come up and hopefully put minds at ease to get some constructive thoughts going. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.25 16:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Sarah Aubry Where to begin... It saddens me to read this thread, the community which I thought made eve so great is appearing to be a bunch of childish spoiled brats. What an original idea, to begin a complaint about people's behavior with insults. That will surely put you in a position to arge about good or bad behavior. Now go back to where you came from, Mr. unconstructive fanboi. While I disagree with the closed-minded outlook on a lot of the carrier pilots, it is abit low to start mud-slinging :/. I mean, some of the people for this are making similar comments to their end as well right? I mean, some of the posts 100% for it are just "YES... AWESOME IDEA. NERF EM TO censored". There's bad on both sides, but most ARE being relatively mature about it. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:16:00 - [21] Edited by: Xilimyth Derlin on 27/10/2007 15:19:21 Originally by: KracKaTinny here's a news flash for you mate..the reason older players get them first is because they have EARNED the right to get them. i laugh at your statement that newer players have to train harder and longer. New players now start with almost 1mil sp's...compare that to barely 150k sp's for the older generation of this game. The griefing that you are talking about is just the way of the game...everyone's been through it...and the only way to beat it is with time, patience and training. I gotta admit... KracKa has got a point. New players do have it VERY easy now. I just got a RL friend to join us and he's already assisting in Level 4s and Deadspace complexes after only half a month of skillwork. In the past, that would've taken far far longer. EDIT: And if a 'new' character (this is a new character, but I'm not an new player by ANY means.) really wants carriers... they can train em. I'm only 41 days (at time of this post) from launching one myself. While I personally still think the doom and gloom coming from much of the carrier pilots about the new 'Specialization Adjustment' is abit over the top, it's only because of lack of information. I mean, you already do refit a carrier for different roles, so to me, these new specialized modules get me curious. Is one like a new 'fighter damage mod'? Is one a maneuverability and speed mod? How can I mix these in with the triage and drone command units? There's just not enough info for me to hate OR love this yet. But this thing regarding ships in the maintenance bay not being allowed to carry cargo perplexes me. I know it's to prevent carriers from loading up on full haulers and invalidating the freighters / jump freighters, but surely there's another way. Maybe to artificially make haulers 'larger' so they take up more room or something. As it stands now, I was training for a logistics carrier fitted with the Triage Module. My role was going to be providing fleet support and carrying replacement ships for non-capital pilots who lost their's in combat. However with this change in a fleet battle because their ships would have no ammo to get back into the fight with. It'd be like saying to a pilot that just launched from a US aircraft carrier "Yea, we know you're anxious to get into combat, but we couldn't arm you... oh wait standby.... we're dropping some AIM-9s into the ocean. Pick em up before you head to your target." I mean, I don't get it O_o ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2
Xilimyth Derlin OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Maximillian Tasashi I believe that if CCP goes ahead with this, to appease those that havent put the HUGE amount of time and ISK into training Carriers, they will find a good amount of players leaving... This is why I still hope if they do make an Extreme change like this they allow those pilots a 'respec'. While it's against the nature of EVE in itself, this change is more severe then some of the previous ones. ------------------------------------------- Carrier Adjustment Discussion - Take 2

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